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Royal Lineage
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Author:  StephenBray [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Royal Lineage

Sadly not mine, but I thought that you genealogists might find it interesting.

As part of my research into learning about my Grandad Bray (who died before I was born), I have looked into and contacted the family of as many of his 11 siblings as I've been able to, and have even looked at their spouses and lineages, etc.

I suppose I was hoping for something interesting, but I was expecting the interest to come from two Mrs. Brays - nee Hesketh and nee Blundell - two big landowning names in the area, but it was to come from Mr. Bill Charnock.

Bill Charnock (1896-1944) was the spouse of my Grandad's elder sister Florence. They had two children, both of whom died young (19 and 30) of TB. It was often commented on how one of the two looked rather like our current Queen (I've posted pictures of them here before), but without this in mind I started on Bill's lineage.

His Dad Alfred (1870-1944) was a similarly Liverpool born and bred chap, and his father David (b.c.1831) was a plasterer. Now, I've been unable to find David's birth certificate, but he is living with his 'grandfather' William Charnock in the 1841 census. This is the one link I need to sort out, but William's father was a shadowy character called John (d. 1802), son of William (1750-1815 of Kirkham), son of John (b. 1723) son of John (1691-1790) of fancy Charnock Richard, son of Robert (b. 1630) the son of Bridget Molyneux (b.1603). I got a bit excited here as the Molyneux were huge landowners and, indeed, knighs of the Sefton area.

Bridget came from John (1563-1596), who came from William (1521-1567) who came from Sir Richard (1497-1569). Sir Richard was the son of William (1471-1548), of Thomas (1445-1483), who was one of the sons of Elizabeth Stanley (1429-1459).

Now, if you know your Lancashire history you'll know that the Stanleys (the Earls of Derby) were considered 'The Kings of Lancashire' and Elizabeth was of good stock. Her father's side goes back to the earliest Stanleys, and her mother was Joan Goushill (b.1409) from Nottinghamshire. Joan's Mum Elizabeth Fitz-Alan was, according to wikipedia:

"Duchess of Norfolk (1366 – 8 July 1425)[1] was an English noblewoman...Elizabeth had four husbands and at least five children." Through her eldest daughter, Margaret, [not Joan's sister] she was an ancestress of Queens consort Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard."

But it gets better, her father was "Richard FitzAlan, 11th Earl of Arundel and 10th Earl of Surrey (1346 – 21 September 1397) was an English medieval nobleman and military commander," the son of another Richard and also of Eleanor Plantagenet (Eleanor of Lancaster, Countess of Arundel (sometimes called Eleanor Plantagenet[1]; 11 September 1318 – 11 January 1372) was the fifth daughter of Henry Plantagenet, 3rd Earl of Lancaster and Maud Chaworth.)

Eleanor's father was an English nobleman, one of the principals behind the deposition of Edward II.

His father, Edmund Crouchback was the second surviving son of King Henry III of England and Eleanor of Provence.

And then we're back to King Henry III himself.

Other direct ancestors of our commoner Bill Charnock include the earliest Kings of Wales and Ireland, as well as Lady Godiva!

Bill died of TB. He had worked on the docks and fought in France in WWI before he was 18. He was the 22nd cousin of Elizabeth II. His grave has no headstone.

Author:  Leaver [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

Following on from Stephen's post, who is the most famous person in your family tree? Mine would be the British watercolor painter, Noel Harry Leaver (1889-1951).

Author:  StephenBray [ Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

By blood I am related to Archbishop Michael Fogarty, who was an associate of Michael Collins and Eamon deValera. You can see him in a few videos below:
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclar ... _films.htm

He was my Great Great Great Grandmother's nephew.

Oddly, apart from this chap, my own Grandfather is the most famous ancestor I have. He ran for Tipperary and Ireland in the 1930s and set up his own running teams. Would have been in the Olympics in 1940 and 1944 except for "that ruddy Hitler". Sadly, he was too old - 40 - when the next one came around.

There is a potential, but unproved, link to this chap, too - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Moore_%28regicide%29

and I really must get 'round to further exploring a possible Liverpool born Harrison I'm vaguely related to that I'd like to hook up with the famous one!

Author:  Leaver [ Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage


I also have an unproven, but potential link to the actor, John Woodvine (1929). Woodvine is such an uncommon name, that I feel there must be a connection further back. When I renew my subscription to ancestry (or a competitor), I will have to do some investigating.

Author:  Mel [ Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

No one famous for me :( Just murderers...too many for one tree really :shock:

Author:  portia [ Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

The most famous one for me was Archbishop John McHale 1791-1881 who is still famous now in Ireland.
However he's now only a 'dotted line' on my tree as the the information researched by my father's cousin is now looking a bit less than conclusive

Author:  charon10 [ Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

My most remarkable ancestor was at the Battle of Hastings in 1066! My maternal grandmother was a Bannister and I'm reasonably confident of her line of descent from the Bannisters of Park Hill Barrowford, now the Pendle Heritage Centre. The genealogy of the family whch is exhibited there goes back to Robert de Banestre, who fought (on the winning side!) at Hastings. He was rewarded with a grant of land at Prestatyn and built a castle there, but later his descendants were driven out by the Welsh and moved to Cheshire and Lancashire. It's thought that all the East Lancs Bannisters of today are descended from them.

Another of my grandmother's ancestors, whom I've mentioned on the forum before, was Daniel Nutter, who stole a sheep - perhaps more than one! - and was sentenced to death in 1827, but instead transported to Australia (so don't feel too bad about your murderers, Mel!)

One of my sceptical friends says, and he's probably right, that it's likely 90% of everyone in the country has ancestors who were royal, or at the Battle of Hastings (or a convict): I say yes, but not everyone knows who their ancestors were.


Author:  StephenBray [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

Re: Hastings, there were also two 'de Brays' there. The name is French, so presumably my lot came over with the Conqueror...

Author:  Leaver [ Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

Stephen, if you take a DNA test, this might confirm the French roots.
http://migration-stories.nationalgeogra ... l_stories/

Author:  StephenBray [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

Is that the Y-DNA test that only works on the male line...?

Author:  Leaver [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

Yes, but you can choose to do either the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) or the Y-chromosome DNA test (I have done both).
https://genographic.nationalgeographic. ... ipate.html

Author:  StephenBray [ Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Royal Lineage

I was just going to say that I have a possibility that one of the Brays I am descended from was female rather than male.

I'll consider the mitochondrial one, but I can't see what good it would do, really. In my traceable records, I'm from Eire, Scotland, Wales and all over this country. How far 'back' does the DNA test 'go' when telling you of your origins? Surely most people have French links somewhere or other...?

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