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In the small Cheshire village of Malpas, 16 miles South of Chester, Ann (or Anne) Jones was born around 1826. Her birth year comes from information given in the 1851 and 1861 censuses. Her father – as we know from her marriage certificate – was an Officer in Customs and Excise and was named Thomas Jones.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a baptismal record to match this information. Likewise, I am unable to find Ann on the 1841 census.

Ann’s first appearance on any actual records comes in 1851 when she is found at 23 Vauxhall Road in Liverpool working as a servant in a public house owned by the 36 year old widow Hannah Rushton. Her age is given as 25.

On 19th July 1857 whilst still living on Vauxhall Road, she married Thomas Forsyth at St. Nicholas’ Church in Liverpool.

Thomas’ origins are similar shady. We know that he was born around 1835 (according to the 1871 and 1881 censuses – the 1861 census states 1833). We know he was born in Liverpool (or, more specifically, Toxteth Park, according to the 1861 census) and we know that his father was one Thomas Forsyth, a porter.

Thomas himself, a carter, was living on Trueman Street at the time of the marriage.

In the 1861 census – our first for Thomas, as I cannot find him in either 1841 or 1851 – the family are living at No.11 Catherine Street South. Thomas is a 28 year old carter, whilst ‘Anne’ is 35. What is confusing is that there are two children – listed as Thomas’ son and daughter with the family. William is aged 22 and is a carter born in Toxteth Park, and Jane is a 17 year old former servant.

Judging by their ages, Thomas would have been six years old when his son was born. They are thus much more likely to be Ann’s children (born c1839 and c1844), but even then the dates can’t be quite right.

I can’t find any reference to the childrens’ births either.

In early 1861, the couple have a child of their own - Mary Ann, and another two years later, Thomas William (my Great Great Grandfather) on 27th December 1863. The family are still at No.11 at this time. Thomas is still a carter, and Ann (formerly ‘Jones’) registers the birth herself.

Ann dies in either 1865 or 1868 and Thomas remarries in 1869.

And so these are my difficulties. I would like to find Ann on the 1841 census – and also find a baptismal record. For Thomas, I would like to find him in 1841 and 1851, and also find a baptismal record. And I want to work out where William and Jane came from!

Any help or ideas would be most gratefully received!

I have found Thomas Jones in the 1851, but when I read your query again I think you may have it. His birth place is Flint, Wales---I wonder if they could have been in Wales for the 1841?

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

There is an Ann Jones in the Parish Records of Register of Births and Baptisms at the Independent Chapel in Malpas, Cheshire from 1819 to 1837
Ann Jones
born 14th June 1829
baptism 30th July 1829
father Ino
profession gardener
mother Ann
The Ino is very elaborate writing and could be John.

There are also 4 more Jones with mother Ann and father John--profession gardener.

I know this is not a lot of help as her father is not Thomas but she is the only one I could find born Malpas.

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

1851--possibility, Elizabeth is a widow.
Forsyth Elizabeth 38 Head Pauper Charwoman North Wales, Mold 67 Henderson Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Forsyth Thomas 16 Son Errand Boy North Wales, Mold 67 Henderson Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Forsyth William 10 Son Scholar Liverpool, Lancaster 67 Henderson Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Forsyth Elizabeth 8 Daughter Scholar Liverpool, Lancaster 67 Henderson Street, Toxteth Park, Lancashire

Could this be Thomas and the William be his brother not his "son"?
Just edited this as I don't understand the above comment I made

Same family 1841
Forsyth Thomas 30 - Cooper, born Scotland, living Bolton Street, Liverpool, Lancashire
Forsyth Elizabeth 25 - born in county-N, Bolton Street, Liverpool, Lancashire
Forsyth William 2 - Y Bolton Street, Liverpool, Lancashire
Forsyth Mary 9 MO - Y Bolton Street, Liverpool, Lancashire
I think this address could be a workhouse as there are a lot of families living there.

Possible death of Thomas Forsyth, Liverpool 1849 June qtr, vol 20, page 456.

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

Wow, Gloria - you've been busy whilst my back's been turned (turned towards Christmas feasts!)

Happy Christmas one and all, btw...

I haven't found Thomas Jones in the 1851, no. What are the details..?

Interesting work on the Ind. Chapel at Malpas. I've not come across this church before but, like you said, it doesn't really match up with what's required, sadly.

Well done on spotting the 1841 and 1851 Forsyth family. I'm still a little wary of believing this is them, though - Thomas (the son) is so specific about his birthplace (he states Toxteth Park once and Liverpool twice over the years) that Mold does seem to be a bit of a jump into the genealogicaly darkness.

Although maybe I can be swayed to this point of view...!

Btw, you've done better at this than the Rootsweb lot. Many thanks - as ever!

Stephen

1851 Thomas Jones

Jones Thomas 56 Head Officer Customs Wales, Flint 17 Pembroke Gardens, Liverpool, Lancashire
Ladge Elizabeth 37 House House Keeper House Keeper County, York 17 Pembroke Gardens, Liverpool, Lancashire
Peacock Elizabeth 21 Visitor County, York 17 Pembroke Gardens, Liverpool, Lancashire
HO107/2183/~F127

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

1841 Census:

Pembroke Gardens, Liverpool
Thomas Jones, 45, Customs Officer, Flint
HO107/561/20 Folio 20 page 34.

All on his own!

Mo

Wow! Absolutely brilliant work, you two. He's certainly pinned down with the job reference, isn't he...?

How did you manage to do the searches? I searched Thomas Jones in 1851 born in Flint, but there were so many to trawl through I didn't really know where to start.

Once again - many thanks to the two of you!

I have sub to thegenealogist.
I put Thomas Jones, keyword-Flint, 1851 then when the options came up it gives County numbers at the right hand side--16 in Lancashire. It was then just a case of looking for a Customs Officer.

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

You make it sound so simple! It seems less simple when using genesreunited!

I've also rarely ever had success in matching "Dad's job" in a marriage cert. with "Dad's job" in a census. It's a very high-profile job for someone that far back in my tree, so it's all quite interesting.

I see he's widowed by 1851 and - probably - 1841. A presumed baptism around Flint around 1795, a marriage with an unknown woman and still an unknown baptismal record for his daughter. There's a lot of mileage still in this, I think! Also, still have yet to find Ann in 1841. Will continue to give it a go...

Could this be her 1841?

Jones Ann 15 - Servant No East Street St Pauls Square, Liverpool, Lancashire HO107/0555/14/~F18 CD29 H_555-3.pdf p.107
Jones Eliza 50 - Independent No East Street St Pauls Square, Liverpool, Lancashire HO107/0555/14/~F19 CD29 H_555-3.pdf p.108
Jones Eliza 20 - Yes East Street St Pauls Square, Liverpool, Lancashire HO107/0555/14/~F19 CD29 H_555-3.pdf p.108

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

Gloria,

I did an Ann Jones search for Liverpool myself last night and found a huge amount of them. What made you pick this one?

To my own thinking, if the Dad is on his own, then I presume he's widowed in 1841 (as he is in 1851). I wouldn't have expected to find Ann living with a mother - I'd have thought she'd either still be in or around Malpas, or living with (or close to) the Dad. Or, of course, in service...

"""Ann’s first appearance on any actual records comes in 1851 when she is found at 23 Vauxhall Road in Liverpool working as a servant in a public house owned by the 36 year old widow Hannah Rushton. Her age is given as 25"""

Ann Jones, servant, not born in County and 10yrs younger than the 1851 above. If you google the two addresses---Vauxhall Rd and East St, St Pauls Square they are quite close together. The elder Eliza Jones is also not born in county-----could she be an aunt or some other relation----any more Elizas in the family, apart from the younger one living with them, which you can connect the name to?

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

Looking at your Jane and William Forsyth----as 1861 census
There are 3 births for a William Forsyth from 1837-1841 on Freebmd, 2 born 1838 and 1 born 1839.
I could only see one for Jane in 1847 from 1840-1850.
On Lancashirebmd from 1837 - 1845 there are 2 for William Forsyth,
1838 Liverpool, sub district Dale St
1839 Liverpool, sub district Islington
Lancashirebmd has none for Jane Forsyth from 1840-1850
I then tried them both with the surname Jones and there are quite a few, none of them name the mother.

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

Gloria,

Many thanks for your continued interest!

Re: the 'Eliza' issue, the only two members of this family that I know of are Ann and Thomas. Without finding Ann's baptism, there's not much further I can go right now!

Cheers also for the info on Jane and William. I've ordered the 1839 William birth cert (fingers crossed). I think it seems quite likely (hopefully?) that William was born Forsyth. Even as a Jones he'd be too old to be Ann's son really...

Many thanks!

Stephen