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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:05 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:04 pm
Posts: 172
In my last post, I mentioned that I had not found FM Suarrow Yates senior in the 1851 census. Well now I have (after trawling page by page through much of the Blackburn census for that year). I have already confessed to being a genealogy addict, so here's further proof!

I have also found Suarrow's name on the marriage record of one of his daughters, whom I identified from the census entry and whose name then served to confirm, at least to my satisfaction, that I had indeed found the right man in the census despite a further problem with his name!

Marriage: 16 Jan 1879 St Paul, Blackburn, Lancs.
Sidney Smith - Of full age Ironmonger Bachelor of 121 Montague Street
Isabella Yates - Of full age Spinster of 87 New Park Street
Groom's Father: Thomas Smith, Ironmonger
Bride's Father: Suworow Yates, Ironfounder
Witness: William Newton; Mary N. Hodgson
Married by License by: I. Bakers
Register: Marriages 1878 - 1884, Page 10, Entry 20
Source: LDS Film 1470928

I found this marriage, which took place 16 years after Suarrow's death, using Lancashire BMD and then Lancashire online parish clerks.

Finding Suarrow and family in 1851 was challenging as he appears under the wrong forename: John not Suarrow. There is, however, very strong evidence that this is the correct entry:

1851 CENSUS
6 Cleaver St,
John Yates, head, mar 43, labourer Foundry, b. Sabden
Mary Ann Yates, wife, mar, 36, b. Ireland
John A. Yates, son, unm, 17, iron moulder, b. Ireland
Elizabeth Yates, dr, unm, 16, winder at cotton mill, b. Ireland
Isabella Yates, dr, 3, scholar, b. Ireland

Reasons for believing that this is the correct man are:
1. This 'John' Yates matches our birth record for Suarrow for date and place.
2. We know that his army career took him to Ireland and that he was discharged at Fermoy in 1849. According to the 1851 census, his wife and the three children were all born in Ireland.
3. Son John A. ties in for age and occupation with John Absalom, known to be Suarrow's son.
4. Daughter Isabella's marriage record has been identified.
5. The marriage of Suarrow and Mary Ann (presumably in Ireland) has not been traced. However, I have found the death of a Mary Ann Yates of the correct age in Blackburn in 1853 (Lancashire BMD). That she was Suarrow's wife is further suggested by the fact that Suarrow's family was no longer intact by 1861. Suarrow, John Absalom and Isabella have all been found separately in Blackburn in 1861:

at 5 Riley Street, Blackburn:
Suarray Yates, lodger, widower, 51, Chelsea Pensioner, b. England
(Blackburn, district 46, p. 26)

at 69 Birley Street, Blackburn
John Absalom Yates, mar, 26, iron moulder, b. Ireland
Margaret Yates, wife, 27, b. Blackburn
Margaret Ann Yates, daughter, 3, school, b. Blackburn
(Blackburn, district 37, pp. 6-7)
Note: Field Marshall Suarrow Yates, junior was born to these parents the following year.

at 5 Sowers Court,
Susannah Rawbottom, widow, 57, cotton winder, b. Tockhole
Isabella, Yates, boarder, 13, scholar, b. Ireland
(Blackburn, district 58, p. 30)

I think that Suarrow's daughter Elizabeth may have married in 1854. The following record matches the 1851 census for the bride's age and father's occupation but his name on the marriage transcript is given as Joseph. I have not seen the actual record, so Joseph might have been a 'best guess' by the transcriber.

Marriage: 1 Jan 1854 St Mary the Virgin, Blackburn, Lancs.
Henry Forrest - (X), 24 Piecer Bachelor of Blackburn
Elizabeth Yates - (X), 17 Spinster of Blackburn
Groom's Father: Thomas Forrest, Warper
Bride's Father: Joseph Yates, Moulder
Witness: Thomas Livesey; John Pilkington
Married by Banns by: Henry Burgess
Register: Marriages 1853 - 1854, Page 184, Entry 367
Source: LDS Film 1278819
(Transcript from Lancs Online Parish Clerks)

I am looking again at Suarrow senior's parentage and will add a post on this after I have done some additional research. Sadly, I suspect that my conjectural link to James Yates of the 9th Foot, who fought alongside the Russians against the French, may not hold up!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:06 am 
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Well done looking for such an unusual name, you should have a medal.
I have Yates in my tree but probably nothing to do with yours, mine are from Chorley, Horwich and Bolton.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:39 pm 

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Thanks Gloria for the compliment. I expect there is probably a link to the Chorley Yates family if only old records were detailed enough to allow us to get back far enough (delving right back into history with any sense of certainty is an unattainable luxury for most of us)!

As suspected, it now seems pretty clear that Suarrow was not the son of James Yates of the 9th Foot, married in Kent. I have found instead another James Yates from our local area who seems to fit the bill much better. Originally I searched only for marriages in the correct time period between a James Yates and an Elisabeth, based on Suarrow's baptismal record - image available on Ancestry: Parish Registers, Padiham, 1573-1812, page 467, showing Souharrow is the son of James (occupation Smith) and Elisabeth. (The Ancestry index give only the mother's name!)

Although the baptismal record gives the mother's name as Elisabeth, I am no confident that Suarrow's mother was Isabel/Isabella/Bella. (By chance, this week's Lost Cousins blog tells us that 'baptism registers which only give the name of the father, or give the wrong name for the mother [surprisingly common] are also a hindrance'.)

I found what I am pretty sure is the correct family by picking up on Maurice's comment that Suarrow's son John was actually John Absalom. This made me wonder if there might be an earlier Absalom in the family, a possible brother for Suarrow's father James. I am pretty sure this is the case. I have found a whole family of siblings, with father James and mother Isabella/Bella, with a nice gap in the chronology into which Suarrow fits perfectly. Other key evidence is the occupation of this James - a smith, like Suarrow and Absalom, and the same very precise abode of Pendleton for these two sons.

The following records are all from Lancashire Online Parish Clerks (various parishes - including Hoghton, Chorley for Gloria!):

Baptism: 5 Jun 1797 St James, Altham, Lancs.
William Yates - S of James Yates & Bella
Abode: Altham
Register: Baptisms 1793 - 1807, Page 17, Entry 19
Source: LDS Film 1278856

Baptism: 12 May 1799 St James, Altham, Lancs.
Betty Yates - D of James Yates & Bella
Born: 13 Feb 1799
Abode: Altham
Baptised by: Richard Longford Curate
Register: Baptisms 1793 - 1807, Page 33, Entry 3
Source: LDS Film 1278856

Margt Yates, bapt 28 June 1801, Hoghton, Lancs,
(Hoghton is in borough of Chorley)
Baptism: 28 Jun 1801 Hoghton Chapel, Hoghton, Lancashire, England
Margt. Yates - Daughter of James Yates & Bella
Abode: Hoghton
Register: Baptisms 1786 - 1803, Page 119, Entry 245
Source: LDS Film 1849658

Susannah Yates, bapt 28 August 1803, Tockholes, Lancs, mother Isabell:
Baptism: 28 Aug 1803 St Stephen, Tockholes, Lancs.
Susannah Yates - Daughter of James Yates & Isabell
Born: 16 Jun 1803
Register: Baptisms 1777 - 1812, Page 141, Entry 7
Source: LDS Film 1595672

Baptism: 6 Oct 1805 St James, Altham, Lancs.
Absolam Yates - S of James Yates & Bella
Born: 10 Sep 1805
Abode: Pendelton
Register: Baptisms 1793 - 1807, Page 63, Entry 9
Source: LDS Film 1278856

15 November 1807, at St Leonard's, Padiham
Souharrow, son of James and Elizabeth Yates
father's occupation, Smith
place: Pendleton
born: 10 October
(Ancestry image; Padiham Parish records Lancs OPC)

Sidney Yates, born and bapt 1810 Padiham, mother Isabel
Baptism: 2 Dec 1810 St Leonard, Padiham, Lancs.
Sidney Yates - Son of James Yates & Isabel
Born: 28 Oct
Abode: Sabden
Occupation: Smith
Register: Baptisms 1803 - 1812, Entry 154
Source: Original Parish Register

Mary Yates, birth 1815, christening 1819 St Paul's, Blackburn,
father James; mother Bella
Baptism: 17 Jun 1819 St Paul, Blackburn, Lancs.
Mary Yates - Dau of James Yates & Bella
Born: 1 Feb 1815
Abode: Blackburn
Register: Baptisms 1812 - 1819, Page 57, Entry 36
Source: LDS Film 1470927

So, after all this, we don't really know why James had his son baptised Souharrow/Suarrow. It seems James was not a soldier, but he could still have been keenly interested in the wars against Napoleon and the contribution of the Russians under the great Field Marshal Suvarov.

The most likely marriage for Suarrow's parents took place in Leyland. (Note that only one marriage for a James and Isabel (with name variants) turns up on FamilySearch for 1790-97.)

Marriage: 4 Jul 1796 St Andrew, Leyland, Lancs.
James Yates - Blacksmith of Leyland
Isabel Bonner - (X), Spinster of Leyland
Witness: James? Sturzaker; Nicholas Plaskett
Married by Banns by: Thomas Baldwin Vicar
Register: Marriages 1793 - 1812, Page 37, Entry 145
Source: LDS Film 93952

James's occupation is given as Blacksmith - and he signed his name. Perhaps, he had simply read about Field Marshal Suvarov (also spelled Suworow) in the newspapers!

All that there is left for me to wonder about now is who was Suarrow's brother Sidney named after!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:53 pm 
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I have a marriage of John Yates at St Andrews, Leyland.

John Yates, full age, bachelor, boilermaker, of Whittle le Woods, father-Thomas Yates boilermaker
Jane Marshall, full age, spinster, of Whittle le Woods, father William Marshall gardener
both signed with their cross
Witnesses Nathan Birchall and Elizabeth Yates

From www.lan-opc.co.uk
Banns: St Andrew, Leyland, Lancashire, England
John Yates - Whittle-le-Woods
Jane Marshall - Whittle-le-Woods
First Reading: 13 Sep 1840; Read By: Gardr. Baldwin
Second Reading: 20 Sep 1840; Read By: Gardr. Baldwin
Third Reading: 27 Sep 1840; Read By: Gardr. Baldwin
Notes: M
Register: Banns 1832 - 1849, Page 154, Entry 814
Source: LDS Film 93953

I haven't been able to find conclusive evidence as to Thomas Yates but this is what I have a ? against, by process of elimination I cant find anyone more likely. These are my notes.
There is a baptism at St Andrews, Leyland for a Thomas Yates, son of James Yates and Margaret of Clayton.5th Feb 1786.
Register : Baptisms 1774-1795, Page 51, Entry 11,
Source : LDS Film 93951.

Possible marriage. Just going off their "son". John Yates (1820) named his first daughter Margaret.
On his son's marriage cert Thomas is a boilermaker, on this wedding he is a weaver.
Marriage: 10 Jul 1820 St Andrew, Leyland, Lancashire, England
Thomas Yates - Weaver Bachelor of Leyland
Margaret Smith - (X), Spinster of Leyland
Witness: Thomas Berry; Betty Bibby
Married by Banns by: Thomas Rebanks Minister of Heapey
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1822, Page 229, Entry 685
Source: LDS Film 93952

Interestingly enough is John Yates and Jane had a son (amongst others) who they called Yates Yates. Unusual ???

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:02 am 

Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:08 pm
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This gets more and more fascinating! Just thought I would look in cemetery records for any of the latest crop of Yates with Blackburn connections. Unfortunately we have hundreds of Yates burials so no realistic chance of finding any Yates with an 'ordinary' first name without some reasonably precise indication of date of death. However, I decided to look for Yates Yates and found three burials, none in Blackburn but one in Bolton and two in Darwen. The Bolton one looks as though he might have a connection this family as he was a boilermaker (the family seem to begun to move on from blacksmithing?)
Yates Yates of 6 Halifax St Little Bolton died at 47 years and was buried on 11th July 1892 in Heaton Cemetery Div 3 Sec P2 No 29 (there is also a number 3546) I am not familiar with the numbering system in this cemetery so have included everything. So far as I can tell he was CE. Unfortunately Bolton records do not give names of spouses.
The Darwen Yates Yates are just into the 20th century. Again the records do not give names of spouses. Can give details of those burials if required.
Incidentally FreeBMD lists dozens of Yates Yates mostly in or relatively close to Blackburn.

Maurice Ffelan


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:01 am 
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Bingo Maurice, the Heaton Cemetery one is mine, I have never been able to find his burial---yea, thanks again. In the 1891 census he was living at the same address.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:57 pm 

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Glad to be able to help, Gloria. As I said I am not at all familiar with the complex grave numbering system at Heaton and you may need to ask the cemetery people to interpret the info for you.
It is a family grave so with luck there will be a headstone. The other burials in the family grave as follows (dates are of burial)

Heaton Cemetery
grave reference
CHURCH-3RD/P2/29

Yates, John George 10 June 1939
Yates, Alfred 09 July 1928
Yates, Mary Ann 06 October 1924
Yates, Robert 08 March 1898
Yates, Yates 11 July 1892

Heaton and the Overdale crematorium records are on DeceasedOnline which I access for Blackburn records. If you think the the two Darwen Yates Yates burials might be anything to do with you I can give details of those. Yates is a common name in our area. Incidentally there were lots of grander Yates in Blackburn, not least in the boilermakers Foster, Yates & Thom (if you think your ancestors might have progressed from being foundry workers?)

Maurice


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:07 pm 
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Yates Yates was a boilermaker, as was his father Thomas, which I would think would follow on from foundry worker. The others in the grave are Mary Ann, his wife, and the rest are some of their children.
In the 1871 Scotland census Yates Yates is with his mother ( Scottish born) Jane Yates nee Marshall, in Glasgow, living with his sister and her husband and family. Both Yates Yates and his brother in law were boilermakers.
I would love the details of the Darwen Yates Yates as I would think there has to be a connection.
Many thanks again for this help, it has re sparked my Yates interest.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:14 pm 

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Encouraged by Gloria's mention of John Yates, boilermaker (married Leyland, 1840; father Thomas Yates, boilermaker), I decided to go back into Suarrow's ancestry and see if I could find a link between the different Yates lines. I think I have succeeded - but can't be certain: it is easy to get carried away when tracing locally common names back into the 18th century!

The breakthrough came when I googled 'James Yates blacksmith' and found the following record:
James Yates of Blackburn, blacksmith,
father of the child of
Anne Abbott, single woman,
date 1742 May 3.

This record is mentioned on the National Archives website, which states it is held by Lancashire Archives: Ref PR1558/2/20. I have not been able to find it on FamilySearch, Ancestry, FindmyPast or Lancs OPC at Altham, Blackburn St Mary, Whalley, or Leyland. I think this James (bad lad) is the great grandfather of both Suarrow and Gloria's John Yates.

There are numerous possible baptisms for this James Yates on FamilySearch but the one I favour (from Lancs OPC) is:
Baptism: 18 Feb 1710 St Mary the Virgin, Blackburn, Lancs.
James Yates - Son of Thomas Yates
Abode: Yate Bank
Register: Baptisms 1680 - 1722, Page 96, Entry 4
Source: LDS Film 1278778

I think we are on firmer ground with his marriage:
Marriage: 1 May 1735 St Mary the Virgin, Blackburn, Lancs.
James Yates -
Agnes Aspin - this town
Married by publication
Register: Marriages 1722 - 1754, Page 14L, Entry 15
Source: Film 1278778
(Ancestry: Brishop's Transcripts, Blackburn, 1730-39, p. 92 (original pic)

As mentioned above, I believe James (blacksmith) and Agnes were the great grandparents of both Suarrow and Gloria's John Yates (married 1840). If so, Suarrow (great grandparents James and Agnes, grandfather Thomas, father James) and Gloria's John (great grandparents James and Agnes, grandfather James, father Thomas) would have been second cousins.

----------

Suarrow's line, coming down from James and Agnes, appears to be:

Thomas Yates, bapt, 26 Jan 1745 at St Mary the Virgin, Blackburn, father James Yates, mother Agnes Yates
(From Family Search, England Parish Registers 1538-1910, GS Film Number 001278778 , Digital Folder Number: 004484134 , Image Number: 00854.
Note that this record did not turn up on Lancs OPC for Blackburn St M, Ancestry or Find my Past!)

Baptism: 18 Jan 1767 St James, Altham, Lancs.
James Yates - Son of Thomas Yates
Abode: Huncoat
Baptised by: Wm. Parry Officiating Minr.
Register: Baptisms 1749 - 1788, Page 37, Entry 1
Source: LDS Film 1278856
(From Lancs OPC for Altham. Note that father Thomas's occupation is not recorded, but son James becomes a blacksmith. Good match for date and place - Thomas Yates is a less common name than James Yates at this period.)

Marriage: 4 Jul 1796 St Andrew, Leyland, Lancs.
James Yates - Blacksmith of Leyland
Isabel Bonner - (X), Spinster of Leyland
Witness: James? Sturzaker; Nicholas Plaskett
Married by Banns by: Thomas Baldwin Vicar
Register: Marriages 1793 - 1812, Page 37, Entry 145
Source: LDS Film 93952
(From Lancs OPC for Leyland. Note that, assuming this is the correct James, he was 29 when he married, which opens up again the possibility that he might have served as a solder before his marriage, perhaps explaining why he chose the name Suarrow for one of his sons!)

Baptism:15 November 1807, at St Leonard's, Padiham
Souharrow, son of James and Elizabeth Yates
father's occupation, Smith
place: Pendleton
born: 10 October
(Ancestry image; Padiham Parish records Lancs OPC; see previous post re error in mother's name)

--------------------

Turning now to how Gloria's line appears to tie in. Coming down from James and Agnes:

James Yates, bapt 27 Feb 1763 at Altham, father James, mother Agnes
(From FamilySearch: England "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NBLR-SZZ : accessed 26 January 2015), James Yates, 27 Feb 1763; citing Altham, Lancashire, England, reference item 3; FHL microfilm 1,278,856.

Note: This record, like that of James and Agnes's other son, Thomas, can be found on FamilySearch but apparently nowhere else! Note also that this James is 18 years younger than his brother, Thomas, and is only 4 years older than his cousin James, who was also baptised at Altham.

As posted above by Gloria, the next generations on her line would seem to be:

Thomas, son of James and Margaret, baptised at St Andrew, Leyland, 5 Feb 1786.

John, son of Thomas, married at St Andrew, Leyland, 10 July 1820.

Wow! And this all started for me with the chance discovery of a funny name!

Ruth


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:48 pm 

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Just a minor observation to add to what has sprung from our common interest in our field marshal. James Yates, baptised in 1710, came from 'Yate Bank' which I assume to be 'Yate with Pickup Bank', a sprawling parish on the hillside between Darwen and Rossendale which is probably still scarcely more populated than it was in James Yates' day. It lies in what used to be the borough of Darwen, still a place fiercely independent of Blackburn, into which it has now been merged. I guess in the early 18th century the nearest church might however have been several miles away in Blackburn at the Parish Church of St Mary the Virgin (what is now Blackburn Cathedral).
Yates is a common name in Darwen with perhaps a higher incidence per head of the population than in Blackburn where it also common. Maybe the name is associated with 'Yate Bank'? Given James Yates' Darwen origins I wonder if the two Yates Yates buried in Darwen Cemetery may be part of the same family?

Maurice


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:04 pm
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Returning to Maurice's earlier post (13 January) re the grave of John (Absalom) Yates, wife Margaret and others.

Blackburn with Darwen Borough Council
Blackburn Cemetery
grave reference N/E/7796
Yates, Ellen aged 9 mth 08 October 1900
Yates, Margaret aged 60 17 December 1898
Yates, John aged 56 26 February 1891
Catlow, Washington aged 2 wks 26 May 1886
Yates, Elizabeth Alice aged 6 yrs 29 November 1879
Higson, (SBC Of) 08 November 1868
Hosker, (SBC Of) 06 November 1868

I have no ideas about the stillborn children. However, I have now identified baby Washington Catlow as a grandson. He was the infant son of John and Margaret's daughter Isabella, and her husband, Henry Catlow.

Information from Lancs BMD:

1886 Death: Catlow, Washington, born 1886, Blackburn Northern,
mother's maiden name Yates, Blackburn Northern, registers at Blackburn, ref BN/2/73

1886 Marriage: Catlow, Henry and Yates, Isabella, Blackburn, St Michael with Holy Trinity,
registers at Blackburn, ref CE13/3/235

So, that's one more loose end tied up!

Ruth


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:21 pm 

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The stillborn children are probably nothing to with the Yates family. In the early days in Blackburn Cemetery it was apparently the practice with 'pauper funerals' to recycle the grave after one or two burials by 'selling them off' after a few years; that is until the council adopted the normal practice of simply filling them up with 'pauper' burials. Thus you find family graves containing one or two earlier unrelated burials. We think that Field Marshal Yates was one of a rapid series of single 'pauper' burials in quite a long line. In that case it appears that rather than 'recycle' the line of graves the council chose to lay a path over them!

Maurice


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:11 pm 
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This thread has sparked a sideways interest for me. We lived about 16yrs ago in an old farm house in Altham. I am now on the hunt to see if any of the Yates family who used St James lived there. The property was Red House Farm and is now two houses. The bmd registers just give Altham, Huncoat etc so I am going to trawl around the churchyard or go to Accrington Library to read the MI,s in the hope they add a bit more, not likely but you never know.
Also, I have sent an email for map details of Heaton Cemetery, so shall be off there as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:27 pm 

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Gloria, don't know whether you are aware of this website. Should be a bit more comfortable than crawling round the churchyard looking for graves which may not be marked anyway? You coulkd always do that when you know what there is to look for.
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Altham/index.html

Maurice


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:08 pm 
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Thank you Maurice I have looked through those. I am just clutching a bit at straws hoping something more could have been added on the headstone.
Possibly my other tac would be the census records, I hadn't thought of that.
What a box of tricks this thread has opened.

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