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Hi

anyone out there with information on Alice Hannah Ramsbottom b 1868 @ the Burnley area. Her mother was Elizabeth Ramsbottom (don't know is she ever got married). Alice Hannah married John Sagar. It has been said throughout the family the John B @1849 saw Alice Hannah as a baby and vowed to marry her one day, which he did in 1886 as soon as she reached the age of 18yrs. Until I know for certain whether or not Elizabeth ever married I cannot move forward with this line of my family. Elizabeth was born in Huncoat @ 1830. Any help would be great.

Edna/Sue

Hi, Elizabeth on the 1851 census living at 36 Cheapside, Burnley, Elizabeth is a servant.
Name Age
Samuel Broaden 45
Mary Laugthorn 23
Elizabeth Ramsbottom 21
George Rawcliffe 40
James Rawcliffe 20
Wm Rawcliffe 17
Mary Stephenson 33

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

1861 still a servant in Cheapside. I have looked for her in 1871 but haven't found her yet,, maybe she had got married by then.
Name Age
Elizabeth Ramsbottom 27
Angelina Wilkinson 54
Thomas Ferner Wilkinson 46
William Henry Wilkinson 13

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

I wish I could only age 6 years every 10 years Gloria. These ancestors of ours had got things sussed

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David
Genealogists do it in the library.

I presume on Alice Hannah's birth cert it gives her mother as spinster and she took her mother's surname. I have looked for a marriage Burnley between this birth and the 1871 census where I cannot find her and only found one which is before that date.
Elizabeth Ramsbottom
Year of Registration: 1867
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Burnley
County: Lancashire, Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 8e
Page: 337

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

Hi, I have found an Elizabeth Ramsbottom married in Burnley in 1851 July/Sept. Vol 21 Page 177.

I think they were as good at guessing birthdates as they were at spelling names.

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

Have you got the wedding cert for Alice Hannah? or the birth cert? I am presuming it does not give the father's name on either, just the mother's name on the birth cert.

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

Possible death, if we don't get any further it might make sense to send for this and see if Alice Hannah notified her death.
Elizabeth Ramsbottom
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Year of Registration: 1894
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 62
District: Burnley
County: Lancashire, Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 8e
Page: 130

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

Hi Gloria

Your info is much appreciated. A little update (this is where it gets confusing so here goes) If your info is correct you will find Elizabeth on 1871 census under the name Elizabeth Heap, living with Joshua Heap and a girl called Alice A Heap aged 3 yrs. They are confectioners on Brown St. Burnley. I have the marriage cert for Alice Hannah which shows no name for her father and only states deceased. On the 1891 census it shows Alice Hannah Now Sagar living with her husband John Sagar and Elizabeth Heap mother in law (Joshua died 1884 before Alice got married). I have Elizabeth's death certificate which shows her as Elizabeth Ramsbottom died 1894 on Hammerton St, attending her death was her son in law John Sagar (he had a chippy at that time on Hammerton St). There is NO recorded marriage between Elizabeth Ramsbottom and Joshua Heap (Joshua had been married to a Sarah (can't read her last name) who died in 1860. So why does the census return for 1891 show Elizabeth as a HEAP and her death is recorded as Ramsbottom. If Alice Hannah was Joshua's child why is her last name not Heap?. What makes matters a little more mysterious is that my mum Edna has a memoriam card for Joshua Heap on which he mentions his wife and daughter. I will try and check your findings about Elizabeth's marriage in 1851. I would love to know if she ever married the, as I said before, I can move on with my tree chart for the Ramsbottoms. Also, I cannot find any record of Alice's birth or christening (I would have thought, especially in thosse days) that to be married in church, as Alice was, she would have had to be christened. Makes your head hurt doesn't it.

Edna/Sue

That made my head hurt Sue

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David
Genealogists do it in the library.

There is a marriage of a Joshua Heap on the same page as a Sarah Jagger in March qtr 1860, Burnley, but that doesn't help only to give us her name.
I have looked at the 1871 census and on ancestry it has
Joshua Heap, head, age 36, unemployed coal miner born Stockport
Elizabeth Heap, wife, age 36, born Huncoat
Alice Ann, daughter, age 3, born Burnley
Living at 2 Queen's Court Burnley.

1881 it gives the details you said
Name Age
Alice Ann Heap 13
Elizabeth Heap 52
Joshua Heap 46

I THINK that they were living together as man and wife, with Alice as his daughter. Not a great long shot but I cannot find anything else at the moment that it can be. They would have had to put her correct name on the death cert in the absence of a marriage cert---what do you think???
There are a few births which could be Alice on ancestry but none conclusive.

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

1861 census with Joshua, living at Rose Hill, Burnley, he was born Stockport and is a coal miner, the other two are his stepsons.
Name Age
George Gadhard 4
William Gadhard 15
Joshua Heap 27
Sarah Heap 34

Possible death of Sarah, the age is certainly right form the 1861 census, and could explain why he never married Elizabeth. Perhaps he is Alice's father and that is why he is no longer with Sarah.
Name: Sarah Heap
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Year of Registration: 1886
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 60
District: Burnley
County: Lancashire, Yorkshire - West Riding
Volume: 8e
Page: 208

I am now getting a headache

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Gloria

I'd be dangerous with a brain.

Phew,this geneaology stuff is too complicated for me,I will stick to taking piccies I think.

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David
Genealogists do it in the library.

Hi

sorry to have given you a headache, this has become an obsession with me. I am coming to the conclusion that Elizabeth Ramsbottom never married and had Alice Hannah out of wedlock. What I can't understand is if Joshua Heap was Alice's father why not call her Alice Hannah Heap (I have a birth certificate for Alice Heap born 1867 in Burnley (this is the only Alice Heap born around the correct time). I was hoping that it would be my Alice NO it wasn't, her parents are totally different. I just wish I could find a birth registration or christening details for Alice. Do you think back in the 1800s that someone could get married in a church that hadn't been christened?. At one time I thought I had cracked the case, I found Alice A Ramsbottom born 1867 in Blackburn, mother Elizabeth father Richard, Elizabeth's maiden name was Rothwell, Hooray I thought my gt gt grandparents, only to have my hopes dashed when I found that Elizabeth Ramsbottom remarried (Richard died in @1870) a chap from Accrington. I can tell you, papers went flying. Maybe Elizabeth got pregnant whilst working as a servant, maybe I will never know. I just hope that one day someone, somewhere in the world will be looking for my Ramsbottoms and may have a vital piece of info. It is unfortunate that there are no living relatives, except for my mum, Edna, of Alice and John Sagar, but I live in hope that Alice may have had brothers or sisters and also Elizabeth and that someone may be researching that side of the family tree. Again many thanks for your input

Sue/Edna xx